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Dan Slagle  00:00

You're not a psychologist, you're not a therapist. But like, Why do you think people commit financial infidelity? Like, why is

Natalie Slagle  00:05

it a thing? I think there's a level of like, not wanting to have a conversation with your partner about it. Welcome to money dates, the podcast that makes money, conversations with your partner feel a little less taboo. I'm Natalie Slagle, a certified financial planner, and I'm joined by my husband and business partner, Dan Slagle, also a Certified Financial Planner. Say Hi, Dan, hello. In each episode, we'll share honest stories and practical tips to help you and your partner feel more connected and confident on your financial journey. So grab your drink, get comfortable and join us for our money. Dates, back again, back again. Here we are. How you doing? Slagle,

Dan Slagle  00:52

I'm doing okay. We got back from a week long vacation. We were fortunate enough to spend some time at Glacier National Park with some of your family members, and then we just, you know, we drove home, it was about nine hours to Glacier from where we live, and driving nine hours with a one year old. That's why we break it up into two trips, two days, I should say, each way. And we got home with about three hours to spare to prep for her big one year birthday party that we had on Sunday, and then we also welcomed your mom and my dad and my brother and sister in law and my niece and nephew into town later that night too. So we're just, we're just in the we had a great time. I should say that,

Natalie Slagle  01:37

yeah, but you're stressing me out, just repeating it, repeating my life. Back to me, it has been like it's been really busy. But I mean, how Fortunate are we that, of all the busyness, right? Like we got to travel. We've seen almost all of our family. We will see all of our family in a month's time. So sometimes things can be out of whack, but it's all for good reason.

Dan Slagle  02:02

Yeah, yeah. Did I sound stressful there?

Natalie Slagle  02:05

No. Well, as you were like, you're like, we did this, and then we did this, and then this, and then this, and I was like, oh, that's, that's a lot,

Dan Slagle  02:15

that's I feel like, I feel like with money, and in past conversations, we've kind of uncovered that you are maybe a little more anxious with money. I was like, what are you gonna say? Anxious? Yes, for sure. Try to be with that quick of a response too. Dang. I feel like when it comes to personal life, it's the exact

Natalie Slagle  02:34

opposite that's so true. We've never said that out

Dan Slagle  02:37

loud. Never really realized that until I started spiraling with all the things we've been doing. Yeah, you stress. Did that make you stress? It made you stress?

Natalie Slagle  02:47

Yes, yes. But usually how it works, it's like, all the things on our schedule, on our calendar, makes you stress. And I'm like, we're fine, don't worry about it. It'll all work out. And that's your mentality with our money. Okay? Today is kind of a neat topic.

Dan Slagle  03:05

Neat is the word we're going to use to describe it. Okay,

Natalie Slagle  03:09

yes, yes. Today is all about financial infidelity. And we have had a lot of people ask if we're ever going to have guests on this show, and I think we will at some point, but for now, we're just kind of testing it out, just Dan and Natalie, and this would be a topic I would want to have some other people share their thoughts on, because financial infidelity. I mean, there's, it's kind of like just regular, I don't even know what do you call regular infidelity, but, like it depends.

Dan Slagle  03:45

You just call it infidelity like, I feel like you don't need the Well, I do regular in front of

Natalie Slagle  03:51

I don't know if like to have something else since financials in front of infidelity, but I wanted to find, like, a definition. So according to Investopedia, financial infidelity occurs when partners hide financial information, such as debts or other major purchases from each other in a relationship. So that's the definition according to Investopedia. So I wanted to talk about this because I feel like our definition of financial infidelity could be different than another couples. Or maybe if you were with someone else, you and that someone else would have a different definition. So I think it's, I think, again, like most infidelities, it depends on the couple. And at the same time, there's some obvious financial infidelities, and I'm going to talk about one in a second here. But Dan, when I talk about financial infidelity, what comes up for you?

Dan Slagle  04:47

The first thing that pops in my mind is, like, the leading causes of divorce from like all this statistics are number one and two, infidelity and finance. Finances, yeah? So, like, yeah, you just combine the two, and it's like, dang, we got problems. That is what came to my mind first, to be to be honest,

Natalie Slagle  05:08

yeah? Finances, and then just the, as we're calling it, the regular infidelity, yeah, that's why we got to talk about it. Because if this, if finances are not are one of the leading causes of divorce, then I feel like our role is to help. I would never put myself out there as like we're a couples therapist or anything like that, but I I cannot help but think that as a benefit of hiring a financial planner, you are getting an alignment financially with your partner, which therefore, which therefore helps against this stat. That's just like barking at all of us, of like, why people get divorced? So I wanted to find a juicy story. Okay, so where did you go? I went on the juicy Oh yeah, I went on Reddit and found it's not that juicy. But I to me, it was obvious. Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to read this story on Reddit. So I

Dan Slagle  06:05

haven't heard this story. I'm super excited. I shouldn't be excited, but no,

Natalie Slagle  06:09

it's just, just okay. Just go okay. I've seen plenty of posts about financial infidelity from the victim side, with the advice generally being along the lines of, you deserve far better, and I totally agree. However, in this instance, I'm ashamed to say I'm the person 34 female who has lied about credit card debt. It happened at the start of our marriage where I promised not to do it again, and I can't even believe I'm writing this. But as it has happened again, and My poor husband, a 35 year old male who is the nicest man in the world and deserves so much better, found out again recently. Worse still, he asked me outright at that point if I had more debt, and then I lied to his face again, and I said no, I told him the truth the next morning, after an awful night's sleep, because I was so disgusted with myself, although I'm fully aware that doesn't make it any better. That's the end of the post on Reddit. Okay, I also, I'm reading this out loud, and I'm like, this could be you and me in the sense of, like, the ages, and I'm married to a really nice guy. And I'm like, oh my god, I promise that's not me. That's just this scenario on Reddit, but it's someone who racked up all this credit card debt. And I think what's insane to me, as I was like reading this, and kind of reading just some posts about financial infidelity, is that it is so easy, it is so easy to be financially deceitful if partners aren't paying attention. And I think Dan and I, you and I tend to pay a lot more attention, like, it would be really hard for you Dan to get away with financial infidelity. But I was even thinking, I'm like, How could Dan commit financial infidelity to me? And I actually was thinking of ways, like, oh, he could do it this way, and I probably wouldn't have noticed. And why are you laughing?

Dan Slagle  08:06

I don't know. I just think it's funny that you are like, brainstorming ideas for me to commit financial infidelity. I think it's, well, yeah, that's the way your mind works.

Natalie Slagle  08:17

So if you know, if we had individual bank accounts, which I could just go to any bank right now and open up a bank account, right and I could just, like, if we worked at different firms, and we just, you know, all of our money was joint, and it just comes in and I'm told, Hey, you're about to get a bonus. I could just go on my little work thing and say, hey, put that bonus money in this bank account. I'm not going to tell Dan that I got a bonus like, I was just like, wow, it would be so easy. So easy. Most people don't do this. I don't, I think so I don't know. Maybe someone's listening to this and they're like, Natalie, be quiet. You're giving away all my secrets. But we've actually seen it. I've seen it. So we've because a part of our job, like our one of our first meetings, and it's like, my favorite meeting is kind of displaying the client's balance sheet, understanding cash flow, and having a really good conversation about it. And one time we were meeting with clients, and I love a pay stub. I could look at a pay stub all day, right? And so I was looking at this pay stub, and it was showing where all of the money goes, like, from their salary, where all the money goes in the bank accounts. And so I'm looking, you know, there's, like, three different bank accounts. I was like, Okay, I know this account, I know this account, but what's this one? What's this bank account? And I was asking this in the meeting. It was a husband and wife. I was asking the husband and the wife was like, Oh, that, I'm not sure. Like, I'm not aware of that account. And I looked at the husband, and the husband kind of gave me this, like, deer in headlights, like, Oh, crap. It's just this, you know, he was like, and he just kind of played it cool, like, Oh, it's just this. This account that I have and and it was so awkward. I was like, Whoa. You clearly don't know how financial planners work, because we dig into all the things, because that's how we do our best work. And y'all need to have a conversation about this. But it was, it was like my one of my first professional moments of uncovering deceitfulness of someone's finances right there in the moment. It was just a little How did that fortunate? Yeah, it made me feel like, like, oh, I don't know if these are the right fit for us, because I really want to work with couples who respect each other, and to me that that was a sign of disrespect from the husband to the wife, for her to find out in that moment. And I don't have time for disrespectful people, so I was just kind of like, Well, Dan would never do this to me, like, personally, on a personal level. So yeah, it was just, it was a strange moment.

Dan Slagle  10:59

Well, I wasn't there. I don't think I was there, but it sounds like the husband was being like, deceitful, right? Am I catching that correctly?

Natalie Slagle  11:09

Yes, he really was. And I what really frustrated me with that particular couple is the husband was the sole income earner while the wife took care of the children and the household. And so that creates an even significant barrier of power and trust in all of the things when the wife, in this instance, didn't have access to an income because she has chosen her role differently in the family. And so that made me really, I mean, honestly, I was just, I was mad as mad at him and for putting everybody in the situation that we were put in.

Dan Slagle  11:56

So anyways, we can you're not a you're not a psychologist, you're not a therapist. But like, Why do you think people commit financial infidelity? Like, why is it a thing?

Natalie Slagle  12:06

I think there's a level of, like, not wanting to have a conversation with your partner about it, because we have lots of clients who have their individual checking accounts, but we're having conversations about it and not necessarily what's happening, because that's kind of the point is, like, Hey, I'm going to have my money and I get to do what I want with want with it, and you can have your money, but more of like, Hey, we've talked about, this is what our income looks like. This is how much money is going to go in the joint account and the individual accounts. And we've had the conversation, and we agree to it. We also agree that, hey, whatever money goes into the individual accounts, you can spend it however you want. We don't have access. Like, to me, that is not financial infidelity, because there's been conversations and communication. So I feel like when financial infidelity is happening, it is because you are avoiding conversations.

Dan Slagle  12:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So to your point, it's not like, because we'll, we'll go through, like, a client's balance sheet, right? And, like, at all their assets. Their assets, other debts, and our intention is that everything is listed there, yes, right? And I think from this conversation that you had with this specific couple, like nothing was listed, right? The only place where this bank account was ever noted was on the pay stub, right, which you did, like your detective digging and found this. And you're like, What is this? Is this account? That's, yeah, that's really and to your point, like, people have individual accounts, like, for that, that autonomy, that they can spend a certain dollar amount, or they maybe do a direct deposit, direct, directly to their individual account. But again, it's, it's known across, like the family, across the household that that account does exist, in fact,

Natalie Slagle  13:42

right? And it serves this purpose, and it's this amount and and everything else. So, like I this whole conversation made me think of, how do you and I avoid falling into financial infidelity? And I think this is an important conversation to have, because I think to just in the back of our minds believe like, Oh, Dan and I will never commit any form of infidelity. I think that's naive. And I think every couple should have conversations about, hey, what are we doing to prevent it? Now, of course, we're going to keep in the in our sandbox of financials, so I'm going to stay there, but like Dan, how? How do we best avoid infidelity around finances, whether it's something we're already doing or something we need to do?

Dan Slagle  14:31

I think a lot of it is just like the transparency, right? Like you and I are in a position where we're self employed. We, we do pay ourselves like through payroll. Yeah, so I'm trying to think, like, how are we preventing ourselves? I think it's transparency. I don't know. I don't I honestly don't know what other answer I have. Like, we know all of the accounts everything's linked to, like our dashboard, where you can see bank accounts, investment accounts, credit card.

Natalie Slagle  15:00

Insurance, right? I also, you know, because there's there's the income side, there's the bank account side, but there's also the debt side. So the example I was reading earlier, she was saying that she has significant credit card debt. Later in her post, I didn't read this, but she talked about how they have all this money, so they'll be fine. But I was like, then, how do you have credit card debt? I don't know, but my guess is, what's happening in this situation that I read about is she has all this credit card debt. Now she needs to pull from the joint money, and he'll see that. But like, so the other thing that you and I do is we are aware of the spending that's happening on our credit cards. And I think the the other aspect that I you and I maybe don't say out loud to each other a lot, that I've been noticing, I ask my clients, our clients, is like, we'll create this balance sheet, right? And we'll look at all the accounts. And I, and this is really for clients who maybe don't share their finances or haven't really collectively looked at everything together. And I asked, like, how do you want us, as the financial planners, to view this money with you? And not so much from like, okay, we're looking at, how are we going to look at it on the screen? But more so like, is this joint? So when one of you says, I want to buy a car in four years, can I, as the financial planner here, say, look at all the bank accounts we have all this money. Or do I need to say, okay, person one who wants the car. I'm going to look at persons one bank accounts, and that's what you have. And what I have found is that that question, this conversation, most clients haven't been asked, and they haven't really talked about it. And more often than not, clients are like, yeah. Like, this is our money,

Dan Slagle  17:00

yeah, and it's not even just a car conversation. It's like, well, if someone loses their job, like, is the other person going to step in and help? Right? Because then, right, that's part of like this. The emergency fund conversation is, yes, right? Like, are you going to, is this money truly yours, or are you going to use some of it to help fund like your partner, if they were to lose their job for six months, right?

Natalie Slagle  17:21

Right? And we've seen that so much where someone, maybe one person, has a significant windfall, or one person has a significant financial hurdle, and the other person comes into play. And it's almost like it's all easy to keep things kind of separate and not talk about it when life is good and predictable and blah, blah, blah, but that's not how life is. And so I think getting like a joint philosophy on, is this our money, or is most of it ours, and this portion is mine and this portion is yours? Like having that framework, I think can really help with the whole financial infidelity situation.

Dan Slagle  18:06

Yeah, yeah. This reminds me of, I feel like we played this game several years back, of like writing on a note card. Like, how much money can your partners, your partner spend without needing to tell you yes? You remember that

Natalie Slagle  18:21

Yes. And I think my answer has changed. Can we play that game right now? Right now, live, yeah. So we're gonna Yeah. We're Yeah. We're gonna say, like, 123, say a number, okay,

Speaker 1  18:33

give me, give me, like, a hot second. Fill in the time. Let me get a hot second to think about

Natalie Slagle  18:39

it. What Dan and I are going to do right now is, and this is kind of in financial infidelity. What amount can we spend individually without having to consult the other person? So one of us goes shopping and they see, they see whatever, and they're like, I'm going to spend this money and I'm not going to ask for, I don't want to say permission, because that feels weird, but like, I'm not going to just consult with the other person before i i buy

Dan Slagle  19:12

this Okay, yeah, that's, that's fair, and it could be any like, right? We're not talking about, well, yeah, play this game with your partner after you listen to this podcast and see what the answers are, because they the dollar amounts can fluctuate quite a bit.

Natalie Slagle  19:26

Yeah, because I want to say Dan, that I'm going to pretend I go to the checkout with my item. I'm holding up my water bottle like this my item. And what amount would this item need to be for you not to get upset that I didn't talk to you about it, because that that's the number in my head that I'm going to reveal, like, I'm gonna go buy this and it's this amount of money. And what amount of money would I think Dan's gonna be upset that I didn't talk to him about this? I don't hand

Dan Slagle  19:57

I don't know if it needs to be my partner is going to be. Be upset. Okay, so it's just an awareness piece. It's it. I don't think it needs to be if I bought this amount of something, Of this amount, Natalie's gonna be pissed off at me. I think it's like, what amount? What? Come on, juicy. Okay. No, no, no, what? Like, what amount can I spend without needing to tell my partner, like, on an item like that. That's the whole goal of it.

Natalie Slagle  20:24

Yeah, fine. I really wanted to what what number pisses Dan off. But

Dan Slagle  20:29

okay, people can save that for for home. We don't need to do it. Fine.

Natalie Slagle  20:33

Okay, so what number can I spend without talking to you about it? That's it. Okay. I

Dan Slagle  20:41

got my number. I got my number. I'm ready. Okay, 123, $350

Natalie Slagle  20:50

okay, so mine, I said 350 you said 200 Yeah. Why was that your answer? I went

Dan Slagle  20:58

to the I went and did some physical therapy yesterday, and it was $200 and I didn't tell you how much it was going to be because I had no idea, to be honest, and I didn't tell you until after the fact. And I'm like, that was, that was, like, a larger purchase for something that I didn't even talk to you about.

Natalie Slagle  21:16

Yes, and see, this is where it gets dynamic. Because what we've talked about too, is that was for your health, and you've also had some health purchases lately that it's like, who cares about the number? It's for your health. But at the same time they're like, We still talk about it before you say, like, Yes, I'm gonna do this.

Dan Slagle  21:39

That's true, I guess so the we're just dragging this exercise out, but it should probably be like a material item, like, sure, and if it's reflective of your values or not. Like, to me, I'm like, okay, a better example would be like a running a pair of running shoes. You know, these, like elite carbon plated marathon shoes are like, $300 now, yeah, like, I feel like I would still need to tell you I'm going to buy a pair before I came home with a pair.

Natalie Slagle  22:06

Yeah, this is why we've also created, like, we they're still technically joint accounts, like they're under our joint bank account umbrella, but we have it, like, you know, how our bank does it? We do have, like, these separate checking accounts, and we just label it Natalie and Dan, and to me, I'm like, Hey, that that would be a Dan checking account purchase. I don't care if it's two grand and you have two grand in that account. Go do it. So again, this is why at the start of the conversation, I was like, I think financial infidelity to describe it. It's so dependent on the couple, and it's dependent on how they structure their finances, what they agree upon. Because if your account had $10,000 in it, which it doesn't, I don't know why I felt the need to add your your account doesn't add this, but like, and you were like, I'm gonna go buy something that's $9,500 I'd be like, cool. Congrats, amazing. Go do that, because that money isn't like the money that's put into those accounts. It is not for long term financial goals. And so now it matters on like, well, what money are you spending and what was it intended for? Because if you know, we have a joint brokerage account. If all of a sudden I went into that joint brokerage account and I saw a through even a $300 transfer from our brokerage account to our checking account, and we didn't talk about it, I would be really blown away. I'd be like, Whoa. And it would have nothing to do with the dollar amount. I wouldn't be like, where's the $300 I wouldn't, you know, $300 for that account, that's whatever it's more. So like, hey, we talked about this account and what it's for and how we're funding it, and you just totally went against it. That would feel like a financial infidelity. So this conversation is actually enlightening for me to reflect on. Like, wow, it all depends. It really, all depends. And like, I just said a lot I want to, like, what are you thinking? Dan, I'm thinking $350

Dan Slagle  24:11

like, okay, that's almost double what I said, almost Yeah. So how do we deal with that discrepancy? Or do we even need to? I

Natalie Slagle  24:19

don't think we need to, because I think we naturally talk about it a lot. I think, I think that financial infidelity can happen so quickly and so easily when conversations are not had. Yeah, so having the conversations, I'm like, how? How do Dan and Natalie describe financial infidelity, because Dan, if you went to the running store and you bought, I don't even know if they make shoes more than $300 let's say you found a pair of shoes that's $450 and you're like, hey, I bought these. And it wasn't, you know, I would just be like, You know what? That's fine. Or whatever, it's so dependent, yeah,

Dan Slagle  25:02

to be frank, like your first response would be like, do you really need that pair?

Natalie Slagle  25:06

Probably because you have so many pairs of running shoes. I'm like, Dude, how many pairs running shoes does one person need? And I'm sure all the runners out there are like, there's never enough. It's almost maybe it's just one of those things that it's like it's just kind of a feeling. If it feels like you're being kind of sleazy about something, then you're probably being sleazy about it, yeah?

Dan Slagle  25:30

And if that's the case, then I feel like it's a what do they say? It's like a slippery slope, like once you start, yeah, and you get rein it in, it's just like things can spiral and get out of control. Yeah, I think that's another piece of having a partner on board. Is like just being open and honest, and you know that that your partner is there to support you through whatever is going on financially, right? So if you can bring someone in for accountability, I think that's going to be an important piece.

Natalie Slagle  26:01

It will be, it will be, well, thanks Dan for having this conversation about financial infidelity.

Dan Slagle  26:08

Thanks, Natalie. See you next time That was deep. Thank you. Hey, if you've enjoyed this episode and are looking for personalized financial guidance, schedule a free complimentary consultation using the link in the description below. Natalie and Dan Slagle are the founding partners of fuse financial planning a registered investment advisor. The information provided in this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice or a recommendation to buy or sell any securities investing involves risk, including the potential loss of principal. Advisory services are offered to clients or prospective clients where fuse financial planning and its representatives are properly licensed or exempt from licensure. For more information, including our disclosures, please visit our website@www.fusefinancial.com.

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